Friday, September 14, 2012

God doesn't make mistakes

Today on Twitter, the following conversation took place:

[random citizen] to Kristin Chenoweth:  I got told I'm going to hell for being gay.  This isn't true, is it?

Kristin Chenoweth to [random citizen]:  Nope.  He doesn't make mistakes.

Me to Kristin Chenoweth:  Kristen, do you think ANYBODY goes to hell?  Do you think there IS a hell?  Do you think Hitler was a mistake?

Kristin Chenoweth to me:  Um.  Please tell me you're not comparing the two.  Don't be cray cray.  And try and have a nice day.

Me to Kristin Chenoweth:  My point is that the mere fact that God doesn't make mistakes is no reason to think nobody goes to hell.  I'm not cray cray.  :-)

Me to Kristin Chenoweth:  But don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that gay people go to hell; I'm just saying your rationale is fallacious.

After that last comment, she blocked me.  I thought I would flesh out my argument here for a couple of reasons: (1) because this "God doesn't make mistakes" argument comes up a lot in this context, and (2) because I may get some heat from some of Kristin's fans, and since there's not enough room on twitter to explain myself, I can explain myself here and post a link there in case anybody says something to me.

Kristin is basically making this argument:

1.  Whatever God does, it is not a mistake.
2.  God made gay people.
3.  Therefore, gay people are not a mistake.
4.  If somebody is not a mistake, then they will not go to hell.
5.  Therefore, gay people will not go to hell.

The problem is that this argument proves too much.  If you take it to its logical conclusion, you would have to conclude either that God did not make Hitler or that Hitler is not going to hell.  You can show that by taking Kristin's premises to their logical conclusions, like so:

1.  Whatever God does, it is not a mistake.
2'.  God made Hitler.
3'.  Therefore, Hitler was not a mistake.
4.  If somebody is not a mistake, then they will not go to hell.
5'.  Therefore, Hitler will not go to hell.

Now, if Kristin insists that Hitler WILL go to hell, then she's either got to deny 2' or 4. She's got to deny either that God made Hitler or that if somebody is not a mistake that they will not go to hell.  It is not likely that she will deny that God made Hitler.  Being a Christian, Kristen believes that God made everybody.  She has no choice, then, but to deny either that Hitler is going to hell or that not being a mistake is any reason to think somebody will not go to hell.

This is just simple logic.  Kristen's response in suggesting that I'm "cray cray" for "comparing the two," is also a typical response.  But it's not a rational response.  It's an emotional response.  It's a frequent one that comes up a lot in the context of same sex marriage and other issues dealing with homosexuality, so I better respond to that one, too.

It is true that I made a comparison (or at least an analogy) between gay people and Hitler.  But I didn't make any comparison that anybody ought to be offended by.   I did not say, for example, that gay people are bad just like Hitler is bad.  The only thing I am claiming they have in common is that God created them both.  If Kristin agrees with me that God created everybody, then she will have to agree with me that God created both Hitler and gay people since they are all people.  There is no reason for any gay people to be offended by that.  In fact, I would make the same comparison between myself and Hitler.  We were both created by the same God.  I am not insulting myself by making this comparison, and I am not insulting gay people by making that comparison either.

Kristin's response is the kind of silliness you get when people emote rather than think.

9 Comments:

At 11/30/2012 2:02 PM , Blogger Unknown said...

This is Abdullah,
I also tend to think that Her logic is has fallacy in it. The Idea that god Makes no mistakes is true. That being; the definition of god has to be taken into account. the problem is the understanding and the definition may not be right. The omnipotence when people think of god has to be absolute. Meaning there can be no compromise to the intellect of the human being. (this means god is independent of your idea of him) you either have your idea of god accurate or you don't. But if you profess logic to prove your idea then you are in reality only fooling yourself. This is because you either understood or misunderstood god. But you can't claim your word is solid either way.
If you were to consider god's omnipotence you would have to consider that he could create anything he wants. That means gays, lesbians, the wicked like hitler, the devil, angels and demons. The whole like and unlike that is possible. This doesn't exclude insects, wild animals, spirits, and anything unseen or unmentioned. In retrospect it includes all reality. The owner of all creation also creates what he likes the way he likes it and can make rules, guidance, and misguidance. This is all still a part of reality. But interestingly enough i can only imagine that god forbade the ACT of homosexuality. Meaning there are people inclined towards it either naturally (by birth) or by conscious choice. The idea that all people go to heaven or hell based on a particular belief system is somewhat flawed as well, because it brings the idea that title/faith without action is a free ticket. If anything this world is NOT a free ticket. hence,heaven and hell. Good deeds have to be done and good action has to be DONE because this world really is a trial(the test of deeds). and the good are the successors in the end case and the evil are the losers in the end case. why would i say this? This is my logic of belief/disbelief and the reasons for heaven and hell. I may not have been clear. I apologize, but i will state my disclaimer that these are my present (as of writing) understanding, and i may or may not have even written them correctly.

All I am saying is that her logic is flawed and short cited and only based on her own conjecture. It might convince some people, but it seems unreliable for obvious reasons.

 
At 1/24/2013 12:40 AM , Blogger Moorgan Hart said...

You have to take into consideration that this girl is 14 (I don't know that she is actually 14, but from the two messages I've read by her in this blog I can conclude that with confidence. I mean this seriously, not as a joke or insult) or around that age so her brain hasn't fully developed yet. Next time have a gay friend post your reply, so the person can't become confused by her emotionally fueled defensive instinct. Of course I'd recommend against saying anything, as children's minds are underdeveloped and will never be able to fully grasp any logical reasoning, so you're wasting your time.

The thing I've come to understand about explaining logic to children is: First decide whether you actually care enough, if they are not your child or a niece/nephew or child you care about then save your breathe. If you do decide to say something keep it simple "Your logic is flawed" and when they ask why, tell them the same thing you would anyone, and when they don't understand just smile and hope it will sink in in a few years. Don't try to dumb it down, because its not a problem of intelligence, its deficient deductive reasoning, and dumbing it down might not express it fully, making it difficult for them to understand years later when they do have the deductive reasoning to comprehend.

 
At 1/24/2013 12:45 AM , Blogger Sam said...

Morgan, Kristen Chenoweth is in her 40's.

 
At 1/24/2013 1:07 AM , Blogger Moorgan Hart said...

Sorry, I just realized that this situation happened on this "twitter" website, and that you link to her profile. Since she is an adult, it is possible that she does indeed have a brain deficiency. This is a serious condition that often goes undiagnosed. Unfortunately I don't believe there is any treatment for it, and she will probably never have the ability to comprehend basic logic. It is an unfortunate condition to have for people in our modern society. My grandmother also has this disorder, and I truly empathize with the harsh reality of this condition.

I also forgot to comment on the original topic: Technically your Christian lore is inaccurate. According to Christian Lore: It is true that he does not make mistakes but; In Christian and Jewish lore Jehovah made Adam and Eve (also Lilith), and they were not a mistake, and they were made perfect. However they were not made to be puppets, they were given free will. He neither makes people evil, good, gay, or straight (according to christian lore), nor does he choose who we will marry hence the offspring we produce. (he creates the soul, not the body, and we have free will to decide who we will become) They chose to corrupt themselves with the tree of knowledge. After that every human being was also corrupted, that is the corruption which Hitler (and all human beings) have within. Therefore by Christianity, every human being is corrupt and going to hell, that is why Jesus was sent to Earth and died for the absolution of human sin. As long as a person is saved through belief and devotion of Jesus, they will go to heaven. And Hitler, despite his atrocities, was a Christian and devoted believer of Jesus Christ. He was completely mad, but truly believed he was doing good. The bible also says the ignorant (including children) will not be damned for their sin. Therefore it is debatable whether he went to heaven or not.

 
At 1/24/2013 1:34 AM , Blogger Moorgan Hart said...

The debate being "Did Hitler truly believe in Jesus and accept him in his heart?" Technically everything Hitler did was in the name of Christianity. He proclaimed that providence had chosen him to exterminate the Jews. His belief was that Jews, not believing in Jesus Christ (therefore going to hell according to Christianity) were all evil and corrupt, and spread their corruption, in the same manor that Christians believes that demons tempt people to stray away from Christ. He at least claimed that he believed in his heart that what he was doing was Christian, and for Jehovah.

Of course most rational people can deduce that, while maybe some Jewish people on the planet are that way, most probably aren't. And killing all of them from irrational fear is evil. However the fact still remains that he on multiple occasions publicly proclaimed his devotion to Jesus, and the Christian nature in which he was weeding out the vipers (gassing the Jews). It may not have been what Jehovah wanted (however, you should take into consideration the many stories in the bible where he does commit genocide and order his followers to commit genocide before jumping to a quick decision on the matter) but either way I'm sure Jehovah gave him a good talking to after his death.

 
At 1/24/2013 1:39 AM , Blogger Sam said...

Morgan, I'd rather not say she has a brain deficiency. A lot of very intelligent people make silly mistakes in thinking, especially if it's over an issue they're emotional about. I suspect Kristen just hasn't thought the whole thing through, but she'd like to be supportive of gay people. I don't have any reason to believe there's anything wrong with her brain.

And I'm going to ask you not to make such derogatory comments about people on my blog. I like to keep it civil here. Arguing and disagreeing is fine (and even encouraged), but I'm not okay with insults.

 
At 1/24/2013 2:01 PM , Blogger Moorgan Hart said...

Serious medical conditions are not intended to be taken lightly, nor thought of as derogatory. I do not know her, nor have any bias against her. There is absolutely no reason that I would insult her. I have several valid reasons for coming to the scientific conclusion that I did. To name a few:

Reason 1:
[random citizen] to Kristin Chenoweth: I got told I'm going to hell for being gay. This isn't true, is it?

Kristin Chenoweth to [random citizen]: Nope. He doesn't make mistakes.

Her response indicates lack of forethought and significant language structure. This indicates that she is either talking to a child, as most adults talking to a child at least subconsciously feel that the child is less intelligent and wouldn't understand a comprehensive answer, or she is suffering from one of many conditions which cause an inability to perform logical analysis of a subject.

Reason 2:
Kristin Chenoweth to me: Um. Please tell me you're not comparing the two. Don't be cray cray. And try and have a nice day.

She put no thought into your well structured question, and her emotional response, jumping to the conclusion that you meant that gays are like Hitler in that they are sinners going to hell, is not typical of a healthy adult female.

Reason 3:
Her second statement "Don't be cray cray." is quintessential psychology indication of a lack of development from a child like certitude to that of a healthy rational adult. This indicates she either suffered a mental trauma in her youth or has a deficiency in her mind, either a nutrient deficiency or a genetic distribution deficiency, limiting the brains ability to develop further.

Reason 4:
Her final statement in that sentence is out of place in the context of the sentence structure she presented, indicating a lack of or impaired ability to form basic structuring. Furthering the hypothesis of a mental deficiency.

Reason 5:
She blocked you. When you made yourself more clear, so that if she had made a simple misunderstanding she could reply appropriately she blocked you. Which is an indication that a misunderstanding was not due to your phrasing but to her interpretation. Which is enough evidence to conclude the disconnect from the reality of your statement is in her own mind not between you. If there is a disconnect from reality in her mind, that can hamper her logical deduction abilities, and indicates a mental deficiency.

Let me elaborate on what I mean by "mental deficiency" ; a mental deficiency is a lack or shortage of a substance in the brain. This could be a vitamin, mineral, or protein deficiency. This can be caused by diet, or the way the body naturally controls the balancing of these things in the brain. Parkinson's Disease is a good example of a mental deficiency. To further elaborate on Parkinson's disease here is an article on how diabetes can cause Parkinson's disease: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4506362&page=1

To summarize; the hypothesis that she is suffering from a mental deficiency is the most likely in this scenario. To a lesser degree it is possible she suffered from a mental trauma as a child, such as abuse or molestation which would force her to be more mature as a child in coping with the trauma resulting in childlike behavior as an adult due to never having the chance to grow and mature as a child. This can show up at any age in adults with childhood traumas. And to a far far less degree, the possibility of a simple misunderstanding.

 
At 1/24/2013 2:17 PM , Blogger Moorgan Hart said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 1/24/2013 2:18 PM , Blogger Moorgan Hart said...

As you can see from my detailed explanation there was no malice behind my comment. And I do not believe that it is any more derogatory than if we were in public and you were talking with someone showing clear symptoms of Parkinson's Disease but did not recognize it as Parkinson's Disease and thought that her actions were done intentionally with clear forethought due to a misconstrued perception of you or your statements, and I pointed out that they likely have Parkinson's. Which is equivalent to if you made a comment on a person with a prosthetic leg walking funny because you did not realize they had a prosthetic leg, and my pointing out that they have a prosthetic leg. I may not have medical evidence in all three cases, however it is a conclusion that I am confident in.

 

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